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	<title>Comments on: The Church &amp; Israel &#8212; Figuring It Out</title>
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	<description>Dim Reflections On God</description>
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		<title>By: Tim</title>
		<link>http://www.aglassdimly.com/2009/07/25/the-church-israel-figuring-it-out/comment-page-1/#comment-16089</link>
		<dc:creator>Tim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Jan 2010 01:22:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.aglassdimly.com/?p=186#comment-16089</guid>
		<description>P.S. I have a Twitter friend who&#039;s starting a series on eschatology.  You might be interested. (He&#039;s amillenial &amp; covenant.)

&lt;a href=&quot;http://mattsvoboda.blogspot.com/2010/01/basics-for-studying-eschatology.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;The basics for studying Eschatology&lt;/a&gt;
&lt;a href=&quot;http://mattsvoboda.blogspot.com/2010/01/eschatology-and-kingdom-of-god.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Eschatology and the Kingdom of God&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>P.S. I have a Twitter friend who&#8217;s starting a series on eschatology.  You might be interested. (He&#8217;s amillenial &#038; covenant.)</p>
<p><a href="http://mattsvoboda.blogspot.com/2010/01/basics-for-studying-eschatology.html" rel="nofollow">The basics for studying Eschatology</a><br />
<a href="http://mattsvoboda.blogspot.com/2010/01/eschatology-and-kingdom-of-god.html" rel="nofollow">Eschatology and the Kingdom of God</a></p>
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		<title>By: Tim</title>
		<link>http://www.aglassdimly.com/2009/07/25/the-church-israel-figuring-it-out/comment-page-1/#comment-16088</link>
		<dc:creator>Tim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Jan 2010 01:17:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.aglassdimly.com/?p=186#comment-16088</guid>
		<description>(For the sake of other people: Steve is a friend from my church. Last week, we were talking about millenialism &amp; &quot;replacement theology&quot; for a while, and I was claiming that &quot;replacement theology&quot; is mainly a term used by dispensationalists, and doesn&#039;t really fit very well.  I said that covenant people describe their position in terms of Gentiles being fully included in Israel.)

Steve,

I&#039;m summarizing what I&#039;ve gathered from both dispensationalists and Covenant/amillenial/Reformed/etc teachers.  The latter always speak in terms of full inclusion, and promises &amp; prophecies being fulfilled (somehow) in Christ.  However, I did say that this was an oversimplified summary.

But... Well, two things:
1.) &quot;Replacement&quot; still works to describe that, basically.  (Supersessionism, too.) I can&#039;t see how it&#039;s wrong to say that the Church replaces Israel, in that view.  It&#039;s just that &quot;all Christians are fully included in Israel&quot; &lt;i&gt;sounds&lt;/i&gt; nicer.  The emphasis is in a different place.
2.) But maybe there are other people for whom the label fits even better.  For instance, someone who says that you can just ignore all the OT promises to Israel, because they&#039;ve been kicked out of God&#039;s plans, and now it&#039;s all about the Church.  (And any time someone actually has animosity toward Jews, it probably tends in that direction.)

Basically, when we were talking, I shouldn&#039;t have been saying, &quot;&#039;Replacement theology&#039; doesn&#039;t fit as a label for anyone.&quot;  Maybe it does, for some.  Maybe you&#039;ve even talked to them.

But I get particularly concerned when the &quot;anti-semitism&quot; charge enters the picture.  There are certainly antisemites out there.  And there may be people who don&#039;t go that far, but whose view of the church &amp; Israel actually &lt;i&gt;does&lt;/i&gt; lend itself to that.  (You&#039;d have to describe the view, for me.)  But I don&#039;t think it&#039;s at all accurate to say, &quot;That applies to anyone who takes a non-dispensational view of the church &amp; Israel.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>(For the sake of other people: Steve is a friend from my church. Last week, we were talking about millenialism &#038; &#8220;replacement theology&#8221; for a while, and I was claiming that &#8220;replacement theology&#8221; is mainly a term used by dispensationalists, and doesn&#8217;t really fit very well.  I said that covenant people describe their position in terms of Gentiles being fully included in Israel.)</p>
<p>Steve,</p>
<p>I&#8217;m summarizing what I&#8217;ve gathered from both dispensationalists and Covenant/amillenial/Reformed/etc teachers.  The latter always speak in terms of full inclusion, and promises &#038; prophecies being fulfilled (somehow) in Christ.  However, I did say that this was an oversimplified summary.</p>
<p>But&#8230; Well, two things:<br />
1.) &#8220;Replacement&#8221; still works to describe that, basically.  (Supersessionism, too.) I can&#8217;t see how it&#8217;s wrong to say that the Church replaces Israel, in that view.  It&#8217;s just that &#8220;all Christians are fully included in Israel&#8221; <i>sounds</i> nicer.  The emphasis is in a different place.<br />
2.) But maybe there are other people for whom the label fits even better.  For instance, someone who says that you can just ignore all the OT promises to Israel, because they&#8217;ve been kicked out of God&#8217;s plans, and now it&#8217;s all about the Church.  (And any time someone actually has animosity toward Jews, it probably tends in that direction.)</p>
<p>Basically, when we were talking, I shouldn&#8217;t have been saying, &#8220;&#8216;Replacement theology&#8217; doesn&#8217;t fit as a label for anyone.&#8221;  Maybe it does, for some.  Maybe you&#8217;ve even talked to them.</p>
<p>But I get particularly concerned when the &#8220;anti-semitism&#8221; charge enters the picture.  There are certainly antisemites out there.  And there may be people who don&#8217;t go that far, but whose view of the church &#038; Israel actually <i>does</i> lend itself to that.  (You&#8217;d have to describe the view, for me.)  But I don&#8217;t think it&#8217;s at all accurate to say, &#8220;That applies to anyone who takes a non-dispensational view of the church &#038; Israel.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Steve</title>
		<link>http://www.aglassdimly.com/2009/07/25/the-church-israel-figuring-it-out/comment-page-1/#comment-16037</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Jan 2010 20:44:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.aglassdimly.com/?p=186#comment-16037</guid>
		<description>Tim,

In your &quot;who says what,&quot; whose overview are you using?  It feels a little like your assessment of the term &quot;replacement theology&quot; might more be your personal reaction to the term than any kind of general reaction.  Do you like the term &quot;supersessionism&quot; better?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tim,</p>
<p>In your &#8220;who says what,&#8221; whose overview are you using?  It feels a little like your assessment of the term &#8220;replacement theology&#8221; might more be your personal reaction to the term than any kind of general reaction.  Do you like the term &#8220;supersessionism&#8221; better?</p>
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		<title>By: Tim</title>
		<link>http://www.aglassdimly.com/2009/07/25/the-church-israel-figuring-it-out/comment-page-1/#comment-13264</link>
		<dc:creator>Tim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Jul 2009 17:23:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.aglassdimly.com/?p=186#comment-13264</guid>
		<description>Bethyada,

The parables certainly seem to speak of the &lt;i&gt;inclusion&lt;/i&gt; of the Gentiles.  But the final rejection of ethnic Israel?  That&#039;s another question.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bethyada,</p>
<p>The parables certainly seem to speak of the <i>inclusion</i> of the Gentiles.  But the final rejection of ethnic Israel?  That&#8217;s another question.</p>
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		<title>By: bethyada</title>
		<link>http://www.aglassdimly.com/2009/07/25/the-church-israel-figuring-it-out/comment-page-1/#comment-13200</link>
		<dc:creator>bethyada</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Jul 2009 10:35:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.aglassdimly.com/?p=186#comment-13200</guid>
		<description>I am not certain what I think, and not overly concerned. I guess I see that Israel isn&#039;t out yet (and its modern existence seems somewhat providential), Romans would support this.

But then Jesus parables about the landowners suggest that God is giving the kingdom to those who will give him a harvest. Whether this speaks against the continuation of Israel or just against the Jewish leaders is I guess part of the debate.

Part of me wants an earthly millennial kingdom prior to the new heavens and earth. It would fit Revelation well. But I like the idea of an earthly kingdom with Jesus as king so that men can see what the world would have been like if we had submitted to God. Sort of a divine &quot;told you so.&quot;

But the nature of biblical predictions is that they are not as certain as its history.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am not certain what I think, and not overly concerned. I guess I see that Israel isn&#8217;t out yet (and its modern existence seems somewhat providential), Romans would support this.</p>
<p>But then Jesus parables about the landowners suggest that God is giving the kingdom to those who will give him a harvest. Whether this speaks against the continuation of Israel or just against the Jewish leaders is I guess part of the debate.</p>
<p>Part of me wants an earthly millennial kingdom prior to the new heavens and earth. It would fit Revelation well. But I like the idea of an earthly kingdom with Jesus as king so that men can see what the world would have been like if we had submitted to God. Sort of a divine &#8220;told you so.&#8221;</p>
<p>But the nature of biblical predictions is that they are not as certain as its history.</p>
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